Talk:A language is a dialect with an army and navy

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Contents 1 Meillet 2 Title 3 Point 4 Requested move 4.1 Proposal 4.2 Survey 4.3 Discussion 5 The meaning of the aphorism 6 More common form in English 7 Lyautey

[edit] Meillet

Antoine Meillet wrote extensively about the differences between dialects and languages, and described military and political action as significant determinitive forces. An aphoristic military analogy is therefore a very reasonable thing to expect from him. A linguist familiar with his work and who had never heard the statement “a language is a dialect with an army and navy” associated with any specific author, if asked to comment on its origin might reasonably answer, “I don't know where it comes from, but it certainly sounds like something that Antoine Meillet could have said.” Pending the location of an explicit reference in Meillet's work, the belief held by some linguists that he was the originator of the aphorism may have its explanation in this speculative process.

Similarly, because the Yiddish version is in such wide circulation, the aphorism is often regarded as an expression of specifically Yiddish ethos. If this is in fact a correct assessment, a Yiddish speaking high school teacher with a particular interest in linguistics might very well have coined it. On the other hand, such a person might equally easily have come across it in some other context. Either way, there is no particular reason to expect an earlier Yiddish published source to turn up, but the francophone origin remains to be thoroughly investigated. Without suggesting there to be anything particuIarly scholarly about it, I scanned several of Meillet's books in which the aphorism might be likely to appear line by line looking for it without success. He was, however, a prolific writer and it would have taken a good deal of luck for that approach to lead anywhere. It is also worth noting that a number of people actively hunted for the source of the Weinreich citation before it was finally located in a not particularly obscure place. --futhark 14:16, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Title

The present title of this article ("Language-dialect aphorism") strikes me as hiding a vivid statement behind a clumsy academic title. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:58, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Any suggestions for a less stodgy alternative? --futhark 09:11, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, move it to Language is a dialect with an army and navy. We have far more clumsier titles on Wikipedia, and it's popular enough to be a likely search subject. Duja 08:05, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Point

What I think is funny that no one has pointed out (at least, I have not noticed) that both UK and US have an army and a navy; Germany, Austria and Switzerland each have an army (Germany a navy, too, and so had Austria in its imperial times); Latin American countries have armies and navies, etc.; and yet these "dialects with armies and navies" are never considered to be separate languages. This fact alone renders the famous aphorism a liability. -- A Finn. (13 April 2006)

Consider The American Language by H. L. Mencken. Septentrionalis 20:42, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

The reason that is not pointed out is that it obviously doesn't grasp the point the aphorism is making. (Apart from being a logical fallacy of course, called Affirming the consequent, by making the following leap: A language (p) is a dialect with an army (q). This country's dialect has an army (q), therefore it must be a language (p).)

American English is the Language Standard in the USA, not British English, and vice versa. There is no need nor desire to use the army in these countries to elevate one of these two to become "the language" and subordinating the other to become a mere "dialect" of the real "language". The aphorism is often aplied to situations where "Having an army" means being able to elevate your dialect, at the expense of othersimilar dialects, to a state language and thereby putting all other dialects in a position of inferiority in relation to yours and rendering their use an "incorrect" use of your "real language". Pia 21:51, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, a better example might be the Scandinavian languages, which link here. --Belg4mit 18:42, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

[edit] The meaning of the aphorism

I spent almost 30 minutes wondering what does the sentence "a language is a dialect with an army and navy" means. It means that a dialect attains the status of language when its speakers have powers, am I right? Anyway, I think this article should contain an explanation of the meaning of the aphorism for the dull people like me. --Acepectif 13:50, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Ah-ha! Reminds me of the aphorism about cults: "The only difference between a cult and a religion is a hundred years". Ewlyahoocom 14:48, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Nice one, too. —Nightstallion (?) 22:40, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Apt indeed, but not wholly accurate I'd say. Witness the public's perceptions of Mormonism or Jehovah's Witnesses, etc.; the latter of whom neatly fit with the Adventists into the Xian family tree. Maybe a thousand years. Some instances of this on the web say "several hundred years," and others "the amount of real estate they own" (attributed to Frank Zappa). --Belg4mit 18:53, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Acepectif- close, but not quite. The gist is more that, for instance, Yorkshire is a dialect of English. When we say "English," we essentially mean the language from London, which had the army and the navy. Same thing with Ancient Greek--there are several dialects, but when you say "Classical Greek," the language you mean is that of Athens. Same thing with French--Paris French is the language and the varieties in the South are "dialects". -- Dogandpony

Well,the article needs this. Howbout right after the section entitled Relevance to Yiddish, or right before, or, howbout even right in the introduction? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.200.157.147 (talk) 21:28, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

The illustration with English is neither appropriate nor correct. The term "English" when used without a qualifier is not preferentially associated with British English. When the reference is being made to British English, the Received Pronunciation is most likely to come to mind. This is neither the London nor the Yorkshire accent (a concept that is being confused here with dialect; to say nothing of the incorrect assertion that London speech is typified by a single accent). Neither is it clear how the British Army and Royal Navy are "had" in London, at least in any manner that acts to the detriment of the identity of the language spoken in Yorkshire. Weinreich's own remarks about the aphorism go on to indicate what he takes it to mean and, if there is a strong indication of interest in adding a section for speculative attempts to squeeze more meaning into a cute saying than I personally feel it sustains, I will add Weinreich's further observations. --Futhark|Talk 07:04, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More common form in English

"A language is a dialect with an army and a navy" appears to be considerably more common in English writing than the literal but slightly awkward-sounding "A language is a dialect with an army and navy" (which we have the article at now). The former by far predominates in Google Scholar and Google Books. Should we move it?--Pharos (talk) 01:23, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lyautey

The attribution to Hubert Lyautey isn't just in online sources; this book (based on papers presented at a 2002 Ottawa conference), raises the "loi de Lyautey". My hunch, based on some of the contexts this has been raised in, is that this attribution (accurate or not) may have something to do with Lyautey's Berber Policy (supporting Berbers as separate from Arabs culturally and militarily), when he was governor of French Morocco. --Pharos (talk) 01:40, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

• Also, he founded the École Supérieure de Langue Arabe et de Dialectes Berbères (ESLADB) in Rabat in 1912.--Pharos (talk) 01:59, 31 January 2008 (UTC)