Talk:Old Latin
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How come the old latin third declension is identical to the classical? - Christopher 19:45, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- It isn't, at least in the version as of today. Note the changes e/i and o/u between OL and CL. 194.80.32.9 22:46, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't the vocative singular of the 2nd declension be -e? Vegfarandi 19:40, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
- Only in Classical Latin. Old Latin had -ō instead. Then this shortened to -ŏ which shifted to Classical -ĕ. Ciacchi 22:21, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Should the ordering of the cases be the same as in the Latin declension article? Or is there some reason why it is different here 24.205.91.162 23:18, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Contents |
[edit] Orthography
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Please help improve this article or section by expanding it. Further information might be found on the talk page. (February 2007) |
It looks like there was no interword separation in this era? Was there punctuation? Was the text direction always boustrophedon? -- Beland 18:57, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
- If you look at the picture, there appears to be three-dotted lines between several letters, similar to an interpunct. (Theyre hard to spot at the photo of the inscription, though...) 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * 12:34, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
- I'm glad you mentioned those things even though almost two years ago. They are more than I got in mind at the moment but they should be in there somewhere. I believe the script is a different topic and you appear to be aiming at the script. It evolves out of the Etruscan alphabet of course. So, there should be an initial section on the script, followed by the spelling, the phonetics, morphology and of course syntax, which isn't even dreamed of yet in our philosophy Horatio. That seems to be a good plan.Dave (talk) 20:57, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Borrows from Greek
I read somewhere that the Old Latin endings -os and -om (later Latin -us and -um), as well as the diphthongs such as oi and ei (later Latin ū or oe, and ī) are obvious borrows from Greek. Can anyone give a source on that? Helladios 08:18, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Not true. They are common inheritances in Greek and Latin from Proto-Indo-European. (It's not exactly surprising that the further back you go in either Greek or Latin, the more similar to one another they become.) 194.80.32.9 22:43, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
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- Yes, it is true: the Archaic Latin, i.e. the earliest recorded Latin, found in inscriptions from the beginning of the sixth century BC,borrowed some endings from Greek.
See for example the nominative singular -OS , the accusative singular -OM, and the dative singular –OI, which in classical Latin became respectively -US , –UM, -O.
As a source, I can suggest an inscription on a gold brooch,the Fibula Praenestina (ca. 600 BC) discovered in Palestrina (ancient ancient city of Praeneste, east of Rome). It is inscribed with the Archaic Latin text MANIOS MED FHEFHAKED NVMASIOI, which, in Classical Latin, is: MANIVS ME FECIT NVMERIO, i.e "Manius made me for Numerius".
From this source we know for example that –OS became -US and –OI became –O.
Moreover I can mention other sources like the Duenos Vase, discovered near the Quirinal Hill in Rome; the Ficoroni cista, which probably dates back to the 4th.century BC, and two religious documents, i.e. two prayers named the "Carmen Arvale" (chant of the Arval priests) and the "Carmen Saliare" (chant of the Salian priests, i.e. "jumping priests"). Both these prayers seem to date back to the Romulean age, i.e. to the foundation of Rome in 753 BC or to the reign of King Numa Pompilius, who was the second king of Rome, succeeding Romulus.
In short, from all these sources that are generally considered to be the oldest extant examples of the Latin alphabet we know that some archaic endings and diphthongs borrowed from ancient Greek have changed in classical Latin, i.e. beginning from the 3rd.century BC.
Hope all is clear enough. Best regards, Maria (from http://en.allexperts.com/)
- No, it is not true. You have cited that the older Latin forms are similar to the Greek forms, but correlation does not imply causation. The mainstream view in modern linguistics (which some say actually helped develop modern linguistics from philology) is not that the Latin forms derive from the Greek, but that they derive from a common source, which no longer exists. Cognates of the endings are found in a great many languages across the entire Indo-European family. —Muke Tever talk 20:28, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Instrumental Case
I read in the *History of Latin* page that *Vestiges of the instrumental case may remain in adverbial forms ending in -ẽ*. I couldn't find any other information on it. Should it be included here? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.72.36.129 (talk) 10:54, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
- Sure, if it can be referenced to a reliable source. —Angr If you've written a quality article... 19:35, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Please Expand
This article does nothing more than point out a few differences between Old Latin and Classical Latin. I would think that a more complete article on Old Latin would require sections on Classification/Relation to other Indo-European Languages of the era, possible ancestor/influencing/sub-strata languages, etc.--William Thweatt Talk | Contribs 18:46, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
- Actually, I just found much of what I was looking for at History of Latin. However, as this article is the oldest form of the language for which Wikipedia has an article, some of the History article should be integrated into this article. I will try to do so this week.--William Thweatt Talk | Contribs 18:51, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
- Hello William. I am glad you found what you want. Actually, Old Latin is not another language, it is the same Latin as classical Latin. Analogy: you wouldn't treat Elizabethan English as a new language you had to specify from the beginning. You would just give the Elizabethan forms. So it is correct only to give the differences. Sometimes the classical good old boys would throw in a few Old Latin forms just to show they were good old boys, so there no language barrier. Let's just play it by ear. No need to repeat all the Latin articles as Old Latin articles. I think history of the Latin language belongs where it is, under history of the Latin language.Dave (talk) 21:06, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Not much proof of inflection ...
"There is not much actual proof of the inflection of Old Latin verb forms ". One has to be careful how to take this. By default, if there is no evidence, the inflection of Old Latin words is the inflection of classical Latin words. Classical Latin had to come from somewhere, right? What is the point of calling Old Latin Old "Latin" if classical Latin is not from Old Latin? So, in order to say that Old Latin varies, you first have to have evidence of its variance. No evidence, no variance. Old Latin is not a different language and that approach in this article is wrong. I note the author claims to be putting in "reconstructed" forms by "scholars" but he gives no scholars or references on the supposed reconstructions. How are we to know they are not his reconstructions? This will have to be checked out and I suppose I will work on that since I am here for the time. I suspect there are no reconstructed forms. Certainly they would have to be carefully distinguished from the ones that are evidenced. So, I plan to change these sections quite lot depending on what I can find in all these ample refs available on the Internet. Also, word formation is morphology while syntax is the arrangement of words so some reorg is appropriate.Dave (talk) 09:43, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
