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[edit] Contradictions in the video game image guidelines

Hi! At one point, WP:VGIMAGES states that:

"If the game's international release has multiple different covers that vary significantly, up to two can be displayed in the infobox; alternatively, consider only using one cover, selecting the cover of the regional release that has gained the most attention through sales, similar to selecting the most common name for an article via naming convention."

But one paragraph later it states:

"Where different cover designs are available for different regions, the one from the region in which the game has been developed should be used. If the game is not developed in an English-language region use the cover from the region in which the game receives its first English language release, unless another English language version has been uploaded first in which case don't change it."

Don't these two parts contradict each other? Megata Sanshiro (talk) 13:34, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Kinda. The first part is outdated somewhat, specifically on which to use if you use only 1. Engiish or original release takes precedence in many other wiki volumes as its sometimes hard to judge popularity. As for 2 covers, its not often that it occurs, but it is allowable if their are radical artowrk changes.陣内Jinnai 16:48, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
I would say the first portion should be reworded to minimize the situation where two covers could be used. Not sure what that rewording would be though. (Guyinblack25 talk 21:39, 13 June 2009 (UTC))
I would get rid of the first sentence entirely, as I can't think of where this would be the case. SharkD (talk) 09:32, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

bump. Megata Sanshiro (talk) 10:20, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I'd get rid of the whole first paragraph. The second one covers virtually all cover selection eventualities as it is. - X201 (talk) 10:21, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
Sorry, which one do you mean? Megata Sanshiro (talk) 09:48, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] New review template proposal

I wanted to know if we could get a review template for reviewing multiple games within the same article. This is mostly useful for video games based off of shows like anime, books, etc. Often these might have multiple games but very little to review, usually only a couple sites. Furthermore they may not even have any formal reviews. Adding the reviews to the prose is actually more distracting and harder to distinguish which score belongs to which game than a simple template. The article that brought this up is School Rumble which has 3 games, 2 with very long titles and only the famitsu reviews for it as far as reliable sources print. Putting that in the prose makes it harder distinquish (note I have yet to post a version like that, it was just sandboxed version).陣内Jinnai 21:57, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Is there much need for such a template? And I mean that as an honest question as I don't work with the articles you do. I guess what I'm asking is how many article do think could benefit from this?
If it's only a couple, then you could just use similar code taken from Template:VG series reviews. If there are a large chunk of such articles, then we can create a table similar to the series one that lets you assign the publication in place of GR and MC. (Guyinblack25 talk 15:32, 15 June 2009 (UTC))
I could see it useful in cases like The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening where the DX version got different scores than the original perhaps?--Kung Fu Man (talk) 15:35, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
A lot anime have multiple games based of it, especially newer ones. Also major movies and books do as well. Anything not released in English it is generally the most reception the most reception that is verifiable are the famitsu ratings. And if done right it could be used for remakes/ports like Chrono Trigger.陣内Jinnai 17:01, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Something related to take a look at: Template:Video game multiple console reviews. (Guyinblack25 talk 20:25, 15 June 2009 (UTC))

Yea, I saw that. It won't work for what I was thinking: musltiple games, including remakes, ports and sequals, which are basically with a few scores.陣内Jinnai 20:08, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Anyone? There does seem to be more uses just than what I would use this for, so i think it would be worthy of creation. Unfortunatly, I'm not so good with coding or I'd do it myself and see what people thought.陣内Jinnai 01:36, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, been busy with other things. I'll see about creating something hopefully this week. (Guyinblack25 talk 16:08, 22 June 2009 (UTC))
I tried working on this today, but it's been a while since I worked on templates with parsers. Unless you feel like waiting for me to re-familiarize myself, perhaps someone else should give it go.
Anyway, here's what I had in mind for it. I figure it should mimic {{VG series reviews}}, but use the same color scheme as {{VG reviews}}. The games should fill the left column, while the scores fill the rest. The top row should be the table titles ("Games", "PUBLICATION1", "PUBLICATION2", etc.). I figured having editors manually insert the publication would be simpler than trying to list every single one we normally use.
The thing that's tripping me up is how to write it so that a new column appears once a second or third publication is entered for the corresponding parameter. I think I know, but I'd need a chunk of free time to sit down and work it out. Maybe I'm making it too complicated, but I assume not every series of games will have reviews from exactly the same one or two publications. Any thoughts? (Guyinblack25 talk 20:05, 26 June 2009 (UTC))
I'm not in a particular hurry. Also it is best to consider not every game will have a score from every reviewer. This is especially true for games not released in certain regions.陣内Jinnai 05:09, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] How about this?

 Reception
Review scores
Game Famitsu IGN
School Rumble: Neru Ko wa Sodatsu 1 4
School Rumble Ni-Gakki Kyōfu no (?) Natsugasshuku! Yōkan ni Yūrei Arawaru!? Otakara wo Megutte Makkō Shōbu!!! No Maki 2 —
School Rumble: Nēsan Jiken Desu! 3 5

Here's a rough draft for it. Right now it can only accept 3 games and 2 publications. It shouldn't be too hard to expand it to accept a third publication, but any more than that and I think the width will get too wide. More games are pretty easy to add so let me know how many you had in mind. The publications do not go through any formatting for links and italics, so that needs to be done correctly on the editor's end. Blank scores can use an emdash. Any thoughts, suggestions, or feedback? (Guyinblack25 talk 19:38, 2 July 2009 (UTC))

Given its limits that's good. For the particular article, 3 games are fine, though I think other articles might have more. There would be only 2 other thing would be the ability to list the system and if so an ability to automatically resort them by user's preference (given the current setup I can't see a reason many users would have for not wanting to sort by title first), although in theory it's always best not to assume.陣内Jinnai 01:22, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
I would suggest using vertical column headers, as per Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Traffic statistics. However, the cross-browser solution involves uploading lots of SVG images, and is a serious PITA. Only Explorer currently features native support for vertical orientation in the form of CSS attributes, ATM. SharkD (talk) 09:27, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
So are you suggesting the same format currently or swapping the names and the revies so the reviews are listed on the side?陣内Jinnai 23:01, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
I assume Shark's talking about the review publications. The only problem I see with that right now is that the reviews are not generated by the template. They have to be manually entered, so the cross-browser solution won't work here. I could try coding it to accept publications the same way the current {{VG reviews}} does, but it seems so unlikely that such a large number of parameters would be needed. I'm still open to suggestions though, and if others think such an approach would be worth it, I can give it go.
Two more question, how many games does everyone think would be needed for general usage and how many publications? (Guyinblack25 talk 01:10, 5 July 2009 (UTC))
Yes, I was talking about the review publications. But, if the publications and games were switched I suppose the idea would be a little more viable since the number of games is smaller and is somewhat fixed beforehand. It would still be a PITA, though. SharkD (talk) 02:12, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
My only concern with vertical game titles are games like the second one in the table. Lengthy titles are fairly common for Japanese games. I'll try to work on it more this week. Not sure how to implement systems and sorting though. (Guyinblack25 talk 17:43, 7 July 2009 (UTC))
how many games does everyone think would be needed for general usage and how many publications? In most cases 5-6 should be enough. 10 if you wanted to be conservative, 10. Beyond that you are talking about exceptionally ported games like Doom (video game) in which not all the version may have been scored or large media franchises like Naruto in which the video games either have their own article or can be grouped by genres.陣内Jinnai 05:45, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
 Reception
Review scores
Game That website That Magazine That other website
Example 1 7 —
Example 2: Return of the Example 2 8 12
Example 3: Son of Example 3 — 13
Example 4: Super Example Challenge Turbo 4 9 14
Example 5: Super Example Challenge Turbo Part II — 10 15
Example 6: Super Example Challenge Final Mix 5 11 16
Example 7: Super Example Challenge Re:Final Mix 6 — —
Example 8: Insert your own subtitle here — — 17

I updated the template to accept up to 8 games and 3 publications. Here's an example using the full template. I figured 8 would be more than would ever be needed. I also set the table to expand a bit depending on how many columns are used.

I'm kind of at a loss at what else to do. And even if I do think of what to add, I'm not certain I can implement it. If there aren't any more suggestions to the general format, I'm going to move it to Template space later this week. (Guyinblack25 talk 17:37, 8 July 2009 (UTC))

Actually in names, it may be useful to have original name and english translation. Other than that I can't think of anything that someone might flag this as not haing that it should have (beyond having more publishers).
Hmm...on second thought it may be better for those if there was a romaji and english translation. Considering the number of Japanese games, I think it could be justified.陣内Jinnai 01:15, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
I think such details could be better clarified in the prose, and the info could bloat the template. Anything can be specified in the game# parameters, so an official English title or Romaji translation can be listed there. If you're looking to include multiple translations, {{nihongo}} can be used in the parameter as well. (Guyinblack25 talk 14:41, 10 July 2009 (UTC))

[edit] Name standardization?

There are lists called "List of characters in the _____ series", and articles called "_____ series characters", and yet others called "Characters of _____". I'm still not sure as to what the standard name for a list of characters is, and if or when it should be changed from list to article format.--ZXCVBNM (TALK) 07:03, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

"List of charactesr in ___" is for lists, and "Characters of ____" is for articles. The difference between a standalone list and an article has been discussed several times and I think the current consensus is that there is no guideline (it is entirely up to the main contributor). Megata Sanshiro (talk) 10:20, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
Well its one of those two or in some cases the "series" is dropped. However, the distinction between character list and articles is really moot: they are all required to go through WP:FAN. WP:FLC won't bother with them anymore requiring character lists to have reception and creation info which then effectively punts them into article status. It doesn't allow for them not to have it.陣内Jinnai 16:01, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
It seems that WP:FLC approved at least one list to featured status: List of characters in Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow and Dawn of Sorrow. Are you saying that this is an article (in which case it should be renamed to Characters in Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow and Dawn of Sorrow), or that any more featured list articles concerning characters are disallowed?--ZXCVBNM (TALK) 00:01, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

bump. Megata Sanshiro (talk) 09:48, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Video game icons

I would appreciate it if anyone could link to a good source of freely licensed video game icons. I am aware of the Nuvola Apps and Crystal Clear icons that appear all over Wikipedia, but they are kind of limited. Thanks. SharkD (talk) 22:20, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Would Commons:Category:Game icons and Commons:Category:Video game hardware icons have what you're looking for? –Drilnoth (T • C • L) 14:56, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm aware of those. The selection is still too limited. I was hoping there might be others somewhere on the Net. SharkD (talk) 21:10, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
I'll see about uploading some in the next few days to stick in those cats; there are some PD and copyleft images on other sites that I can upload to Commons. –Drilnoth (T • C • L) 21:29, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
Awesome, thanks! Hopefully they're of the same quality as the Nuvola ones. SharkD (talk) 21:48, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
Probably not... there aren't many that I can find easily, but I'm working on it. –Drilnoth (T • C • L) 21:56, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
Let me know when you've made further progress. SharkD (talk) 09:24, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Another VG Front Page FA heads up

Portal (video game) will be on the mainpage July 5th. Anti-Vandalism helpers appreciated. (Again, a random choice here by Raul, I hope that doesn't screw up anyone's plans to request a VG front pager...) --MASEM (t) 13:34, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Now that's thinking with - wait, no... I hope the page is Still Alive after - hmm, that's no good either... Thanks for being a real companion - ah screw it, thanks for the heads up. ;) ~ Amory (user • talk • contribs) 14:31, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

How many times can a human being remove the word cake from an article and maintain their sanity? - X201 (talk) 14:32, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

As a required Aperture Science test protocol, we can no longer lie to you. When the article is featured on the Main Page, vandalism will not be ... missed. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 14:43, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
I am sorta glad this one falls on a holiday weekend in the middle of summer. Imaging the crud this could get if it were mainpage'd in late September... --MASEM (t) 14:58, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
I HAVE noticed, at least, that the bitching about "zomg videogames are stupid why not something important" hasn't really happened the past couple of times. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 16:09, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
This is like the third or fourth time I have heard "random choice by Raul". Maybe he does like video games... MuZemike 16:17, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

This FA was a triumph...I'm making a note here, huge success.--ZXCVBNM (TALK) 17:46, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

I am predicting much "THE CAEK IZ A LIE LULZ" type spam... --Izno (talk) 23:28, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Just one last bump, just grab more eyes on this. --MASEM (t) 04:32, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

On my watchlist. I didn't do the last couple for some reason, but it's always nice to support the FAs. Greg Tyler (t • c) 08:57, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
Recently I've not seen problems with VG FA's but this is too big a honeypot for the 4chan mentality to let pass by. --MASEM (t) 14:22, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal to move WP:VG/D to Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Video game

This was previously discussed here, with generally favorable response, but nothing came of it. I would like to see the proposal revived, and actually acted upon this time. I already mentioned this here, before having the previous discussion mentioned.

The previous discussion mentioned the bot archiving of closed debates as one reason for the move. I have a second. WP:DELSORT now has a semi-automated addition for Twinkle to greatly assist in the sorting. With it, a sort is a 2-3 click process, beyond anything needed to decide where to sort a given debate. This makes mass sorting of deletions a lot easier, and is part of why I am willing to do such mass sortings. But the tool only works for sort pages under the WP:DELSORT project. There are a couple of sort pages that are not under the project. This is one of them. Since the tool does not work for them, I at least simply do not sort them, or I sort them under Games instead of Video Games. Moving this under WP:DELSORT would allow it to be added to the sorting tool quite easily, and thus allow the pages to be easily sorted. - TexasAndroid (talk) 18:05, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

One thing brought up in the other discussion was the issue of other pages - WP:VG/D covers AfD, CfD, TfD, and MfD. It seems to me that those sorts of discussions can indeed be included, so I don't think that particular claim has any merit and it would be nice to be more efficient (although I think we're doing well) in sorting. I will say, however, that in terms of appearance and ease of use, I think the current archiving system on WP:VG/D is far better and preferable, as is the overall look of the page. ~ Amory (user • talk • contribs) 19:55, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
Barring any sudden dissent, I'm going to move forward on a plan to implement this. I'll keep an eye on this discussion here, in case anyone dissents to the general idea here, but as for developing a plan to move the idea forward, I'll do that over at the talk page of the delsort in question. - TexasAndroid (talk) 23:24, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
Quick question- how will the archives be handled? I'd hate to see the archives split. (Guyinblack25 talk 01:02, 5 July 2009 (UTC))
Not sure what you mean by "split". The archives for everything under WP:DS are all handled in the same way by a bot. - TexasAndroid (talk) 03:55, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
Our current archives for video game deletions are at Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Deletion/2009 through Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Deletion/2005. Would the WP:DS ones be archived under different subpages? (Guyinblack25 talk 04:38, 8 July 2009 (UTC))

[edit] Magazines

I have a pile of PSM, EGM, and Nintendo Power issues I'd like to get rid of, so I wanted to check if anyone here wanted them before I toss them. Please leave a note on my talk page if you do. You can have them for shipping costs. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 18:58, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

You might want to outline what's in them, just so people interested in using them to build an article will be more amenable to snapping them up. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 02:13, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
I don't have time to go through over 100 magazines just to list what's in all of them, especially when I'm trying to get rid of them. :) ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 21:31, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
You could visit Retromag's website as well and offer the issues to them directly. I know they're on the lookout for issues they're missing and are willing to pay S&H cost to have them.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 07:18, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
I visited their site, but wasn't terribly impressed by it. Looks like it was hacked together in a couple hours. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 21:31, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
Outlining what's in them would be very tedious indeed. Could you give the approximate time range, e.g. "Nintendo Power: Feb. '98 to Jun. '00"? — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 21:55, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm making a list on my talk page. It's currently incomplete, but will be updated as I find them and have time to list them. On a related note, you may be interested in seeing this page. Some of the magazines listed there have catalogs of article and other coverage. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 23:25, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Partner peer review for Byzantine civil war of 1341–1347 now open

The peer review for Byzantine civil war of 1341–1347, an article within the scope of the Military history WikiProject, is now open. The Military history WikiProject is currently partnering with our project to share peer reviews, so all editors are cordially invited to participate, and any input there would be very appreciated! Thanks! Kirill [talk] [pf] 13:58, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Is Byzantium somewhere in Japan? j/k SharkD (talk) 22:38, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
No, it's a Starcraft map. Nifboy (talk) 19:36, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Task force request

For the life of me I cannot find the WP Video game request page for task forces or even the general Wikipedia one. And I've been there before too, no logical search brings anything up other than article request pages. Can anyone help?  æronphonehome  10:03, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

You'd be wanting the WikiProject Council, specifically their proposals page (which has been re-done since I last visited and now works a lot better). Greg Tyler (t • c) 10:30, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
That said, task forces are usually brought up here, so the project as a whole can decide on the need. --Izno (talk) 05:01, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
Done and done (see below).  æronphonehome  05:09, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Konami music video game task force

Attention everyone who edits music video game articles. I have proposed the Konami music video game task force at WikiProject Council. If you are interested in helping please sign and write any comments you have on the discussion page. Thank you.  æronphonehome  05:08, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

This user is part of the Konami music video game task force.


[edit] Template:Megami Tensei series

This template could use some cleanup. I've already mentioned a few comments on the discussion page and removed the redlinks which had been around for some time. There has to be some better way of organizing a series that has tons of spinoffs, several of which are more popular than the original.陣内Jinnai 22:29, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

You could just make it into a bunch of different templates for each series.--ZXCVBNM (TALK) 04:48, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
Or you could merge certain aspects together. Make it "Anime and Manga", Spin-Offs, and etc. I'm not sure exactly how that would fit though because I'm not familiar enough with the series. -- Nomader (Talk) 04:57, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Free use screenshots to disseminate

Search Wikimedia Commons Wikimedia Commons has media related to: Zeno Clash

I've recently contacted the developers behind Zeno Clash and they have released 10 high resolution screenshots of their game which you can see at Wikimedia Commons. I've currently replaced the shots on the Zeno Clash page with the free versions, and have also placed an image at Source (game engine) to show a third party implementation.

I've not had much time to edit of late due to very sporadic access to the internet, so some of my projects are on hold, and I do not have time to disseminate these screenshots to the relevant pages. While the English Wikipedia can host fair use imagery, many of the foreign language versions can not, so de:Source Engine and sv:Zeno Clash is bereft of images.

If anyone has any spare time, I'd be grateful if they would integrate the images at the various foreign language Wikipedias, as well as insert versions of Template:Commonscat where appropriate. - hahnchen 00:23, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Any chance of pestering Valve in the same way? :-) --MASEM (t) 00:48, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm currently pestering Tripwire Interactive for Killing Floor (2009 video game) (and thus more Unreal Engine) shots. The indie developers are more likely to release free images because their properties are worth less (not worthless), and they have less to lose. To pester Valve, I would start with User:mikeblas, he's a Valve employee and a Wikipedia admin, but he hasn't uploaded anything on his own volition, so don't be too optimistic. To improve the odds, ask for non-game images such as their tech demos showing off Source's features, such as its lighting or particle effects. - hahnchen 01:11, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
Is there any chance that they (ACE Team) could release the Zeno Clash logo for Wikipedia use?--ZXCVBNM (TALK) 04:50, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
I doubt a company would release their logo under a commons-compatible license. You should just write a FUR. –xenotalk 04:53, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
Even in low-resolution? =)--ZXCVBNM (TALK) 04:53, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
I doubt it. I don't think we ever have any issue with FURs for logos. –xenotalk 04:55, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Anyone for disseminating the screens? - hahnchen 16:23, 9 July 2009 (UTC)


  • On the subject, if only every video game company were like Ubisoft! =) –xenotalk 04:55, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
    • Speaking of Ubisoft, if they own a company, do the game screens for that company's old games fall under their free license? I'm working on Computer Bismarck, which was developed by Strategic Simulations, Inc., which eventually got bought out and ended up with Ubisoft, which later retired the brand. I was going to upload a screen shot and was working on the FUR when I found out Ubisoft bought SSI. Any thoughts? (Guyinblack25 talk 19:52, 7 July 2009 (UTC))
      • Hmm... My best guess would be yes, the license extends, but don't quote me on it. –xenotalk 19:56, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
        • I decided to err on the side of caution for now. I uploaded the image here with a FUR until we figure this out. (Guyinblack25 talk 21:44, 7 July 2009 (UTC))
      • My understanding is that if Ubi or a subsidiary developed it, it falls under the OTRS license. But I don't think it extends to Ubi-published games. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 22:04, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
        • Hi! The original discussion with Ubisoft that lead to the free licence was about Lock On: Modern Air Combat, which wasn't a Ubisoft-developed game. So I'm pretty sure the licence applies to all Ubisoft-developed and Ubisoft-published games. Source: [1] and [2]. Megata Sanshiro (talk) 05:57, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
          • I disagree. I think the Ubisoft free use license is on shaky grounds. They may have had the rights to release screenshots of Lock On: Modern Air Combat, and they may be fine with user-screenshots of their games being free use, but Ubisoft will not have the rights to release screenshots of all games distributed by them. Some developers, such as pre-acquisition id games, have full control of their properties, regardless of who released them. - hahnchen 16:23, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
            • If it's on "shaky ground" then feel free to try to repeal it at Commons. Megata Sanshiro (talk) 09:53, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Cool. I guess I'll upload it to Commons then.
Follow up question, what about the games developed by SSI during its time changing hands between 1994 and 2001? Do those still fall under Ubisoft's free license so long as they were developed by SSI? (Guyinblack25 talk 15:17, 8 July 2009 (UTC))

[edit] Pool of Radiance

I've put a bunch of work into this one recently. Anyone interested in helping me get Pool of Radiance up to GA? :) BOZ (talk) 03:53, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Are you aware of the Amiga Magazine Rack? Lots of smexy sources. Someoneanother 10:06, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
Thanks! BOZ (talk) 12:05, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Yamaha sound chips

Do these articles actually fall under our scope? Some were tagged with {{WikiProject Video games}} and some were not.

Although they are used in video game systems, it seems like they are not related enough to warrant being in the project's scope. On another note, are they even notable enough to have articles...? MrKIA11 (talk) 23:49, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Maybe you could merge them into a single article. Otherwise, I think they do fall under that scope (low importance) since some of them were used in arcade machines.--ZXCVBNM (TALK) 00:21, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
Yea, low importance and probably should be merged. They are essentially the same as Video cards. Since this project covers computer gaming, its scope includes hardware related, and more importantly advanced because of gaming, to that as well. Stuff like keyboard would not be as it wasn't really advanced by the medium and its more that computer gaming was adapted to fit it.陣内Jinnai 02:25, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
I was the one who tagged both of them; I think they both fall under the WPVG scope, though barely per Jinnai above. MuZemike 04:27, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] new series templates being proposed

WT:SE#New series template design proposal has done some new designs with templates. While I disagree about their overall usefulness (i think they could be more useful), I am bringing them here fore wider consideration.陣内Jinnai 05:35, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

I... don't like them. The current setup seems better to me; it makes a very definite "this navbox is for the most relevant links pertinent to this article" with the general series navbox beneath, ex. Final Fantasy (video game). --Izno (talk) 21:04, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
What I worry about is if someone updates the main Final Fantasy navbox, but it doesn't update in the others. Would the editor be required to go through every game in the series and update each navbox separately? Or would the information appear as an option in the syntax? (I'm not very technical -- maybe "code" is a better word than syntax here) -- Nomader (Talk) 21:47, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
Any change to the Final Fantasy navbox would be shown in all of the articles, just like it is now. The links that only appear in some articles are added in by those articles themselves. There would be a one-time run-through of all of the articles to set it up, but no more would be necessary. --PresN 23:09, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
Also, re: Izno, one thing I like about this implementation is that right now many of the Final Fantasy games do not have their own box- FF8 does, as it has quite a few child articles, but FF5 doesn't, as it only has two (Music and Characters). This implementation allows for that non-existant navbox to be created as one line of the already existant series box, but only for those articles for which it is relevant. --PresN 23:12, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
Any change to the [...] navbox would be shown in all of the articles, just like it is now. The links that only appear in some articles are added in by those articles themselves. - This is why I wanted to bring this idea up. I would allow us to remove any need for secondary boxes for series + the standalone title (second boxes may still be relevant for other things). Some titles can benefit from this more than others obviously. 陣内 Jinnai 23:26, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
I think I'd rather see the characters and music and what not merged into the main template, if it really is the case that some of the games don't have a template of their own. --Izno (talk) 02:42, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Seems like a pretty cool and useful idea to me. --TorsodogTalk 00:27, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
It may not work for most of the project, but for the Final Fantasy games I can see the point with all the separate articles. Sorry about the question, I just wanted some clarification. -- Nomader (Talk) 02:48, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Re:Izno, I would really rather not have all the child articles of each FF game be listed after the game, in the style of Template:The Legend of Zelda for two reasons. First, there sometimes are a lot of child articles (characters, world, music, individual characters, etc.). Second, the number of child articles varies across the titles. With Zelda, it works to have the characters article in-line right after the game because it's only one inobtrusive article. Axem Titanium (talk) 15:53, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
I was not envisioning a Zelda-esque navbox. Instead, something closer to User:Izno/navbox. I picked Discography as the most common element, but I believe there are other common elements. Even if there are not, those could then be added in the method of Zelda. The only Navbox would probably not be a good idea to change in this way was the FF7 navbox. --Izno (talk) 03:22, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
That's another good option. At any rate, this message was just a heads-up for anyone else who might feel that this design is beneficial to their series template. We'll be discussing specifics of implementation at WT:SE if you feel strongly about the issue. Axem Titanium (talk) 13:37, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal to list Mario (series) and/or Mario as top-importance

I propose that the article for the Mario series of video games and/or the character Mario be listed as top-importance to this project. They are probably the most famous video game series and video game character, respectively, ever. The series is the best-selling of all time, and many of its games make the list of best-selling video games. The character is internationally recognized as a mascot for Nintendo and the video game industry in general; one survey indicated that more American children recognized him than Mickey Mouse. I am aware that if either one of these passes, it will be the only series or character article to be listed as top-importance to the project, but I think they both deserve to be; that is why I am proposing this. Tezkag72 (talk) 18:36, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, the Mario Series is already a Top-importance article, but anyways, Mario should be a Top-importance article too. GamerPro64 (talk) 18:46, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
The importance criteria mention Mario as a "cultural icon" in the High importance criteria, but since Mario is basically the most famous video game character ever, I guess moving him to top importance wouldn't hurt.--ZXCVBNM (TALK) 19:05, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm unsure if games and a character inspired by core concepts of gaming should be on the same scale as those very same concepts. I think they should be High.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 19:07, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
I agree with Kung Fu Man. Only core concepts (like action game or video game) should really be top importance. I think Mario is just fine at High. -- Nomader (Talk) 19:09, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
There are many biographical articles of real people in the video game industry, some of whom really didn't do that much. They aren't "core concepts", except for Shigeru Miyamoto and maybe a couple others. Tezkag72 (talk) 20:41, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
GamerPro64 - Mario (series) was improperlly listed as Top importance because there had never been a discussion since the importance criteria were established on that said they should be made an expection. I have moved it high for the moment. If nominal consensus supports it (and imo silence should not be taken here as acceptance due to the contriversial nature), then its fine.
Personally the series as a whole has not bee all that impactfaul. Super Mario Bros. you might have a better argument at, but the later Mario series haven't really had the same impact. Some almost none. As for the character, international fame is not what should be measured, but what impact its had on the industry as a whole.陣内Jinnai 21:03, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
Well Jinnai, I noticed that you downgraded the series to high-importance and since you make a good point, I agree with the change. GamerPro64 (talk) 22:58, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Dragon magazine's "The Role of Computers" column

Hey there. :) I was thinking of going through this long-running column issue-by-issue (and its successor columns, might as well) and posting a quick blurb in the review section for every game which doesn't already mention a review from Dragon. My edit summary would say something to the effect of "contact me if you want more info from this review", and of course anyone else who has access to Dragon would be able to then make use of their copy as well.

I was thinking of including a one or two-sentence note at most, because we are probably talking about a few hundred reviews! I'm thinking of something very general, to the effect of "GAME was reviewed in Dragon #XXX (MM YYYY), where the reviwers rated it X stars." I'd have a citation to the article, and more details can be filled out from there. Thoughts before I get going? BOZ (talk) 00:40, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

I've been doing something very similar with CGW, though grad school has put it on hold for a while. I prefer to pick out relevant comments from the review (because early CGW didn't use scores), but it's a somewhat time-consuming process. It would be especially helpful because our pre-internet coverage of games is distinctly lacking in sourcing. Nifboy (talk) 01:19, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Well, it's pre-internet all right. :) Basically mid-80s to mid-90s. I'll probably start it up over the next few days and see where that takes me. Yeah, the time consuming part is why I want to keep it very basic, but on request I'll pull more out of the review. BOZ (talk) 05:47, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Console priorities

I propose that the article for the Sega Dreamcast listed as a top-importance article for the Wikiproject. The last Sega console is also the first console to support online gaming. That, in my opinion, is enough to make it a Top-importance article, just like the PlayStation 2, the NES and the Wii. GamerPro64 (talk) 15:12, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't think that you could classify it as "historic" since it didn't make as much of an impact in sales, popularity, games, etc. The Dreamcast was a failed console, whether you like it or not. Introducing online gaming for consoles isn't big enough of an achievement to classify it as historic rather than just important.--ZXCVBNM (TALK) 16:33, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
It wasn't *that* failed...but by no means is it Top either. It's definitely High though.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 16:34, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
That doesn't make sense, it would be like changing the articles of industry figures to top importance just based on the fact that they haven't been fired yet. Top importance should have some kind of impact, not just be popular.--ZXCVBNM (TALK) 16:59, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Well then, let's make the PS2 a High-importance article, too. I don't see why this Sony console is so important like that. GamerPro64 (talk) 17:02, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

The PS2 is the best selling console of all time. If that isn't top-importance, then what console is? --TorsodogTalk 17:12, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

The NES, the Wii, the PS1, the Atari 2600.... may I go on? GamerPro64 (talk) 17:14, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

To accent GamePro64's point, the PS2 is currently Top-priority. I do agree it should be High.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 17:19, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Again, it is the best selling console OF ALL TIME. How does it not qualify as historical? --TorsodogTalk 17:24, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

For god's sake, sales don't matter!! >:( GamerPro64 (talk) 17:26, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Importance should not be based on temporary achievements. What happens if the PS3/360/Wii outsell it? Then that standing is gone. You have to consider too population increases and the gradual increase of gamers across the world. Simply because more people bought it doesn't mean a whole lot when there are more people purchasing such items. It's a loose and not really historic at all foothold. Sorry.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 17:28, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Don't be sorry. I honestly don't really care either way here. But when a console is in the homes of more people than any other console in history, it obviously has had an enormous impact on gaming history. --TorsodogTalk 17:32, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

So, do we all agree that the PS2 should be a high-important article? GamerPro64 (talk) 17:36, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

No... obviously we do not. And please try to make constructive comments and arguments here. --TorsodogTalk 17:37, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
I think a constructive one's already been made since the whole argument for Top-importance is "it sold a lot", which doesn't mean much if later consoles sell more. We can wait for more opinions I guess.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 17:39, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Who ever said that sales is the "whole argument"? Just because that is the only one I offered up here in the 3 mins we've been talking does not mean it is the one and only argument. I am no expert in the PS2, and you two are being incredibly hasty here. Let others voice their opinion before making changes and getting impatient. This is really not that pressing of an issue. Geez. --TorsodogTalk 17:44, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

You know while we're at it why is the original PlayStation top priority?--Kung Fu Man (talk) 17:40, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Because it marks the entry of Sony, one of the largest video game companies in the world, into the video game home console market. Again, if that isn't historical, I really, REALLY don't know what is. --TorsodogTalk 17:44, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
For once, I agree with Torsodog. The PS1 helped popularize CD-based games. GamerPro64 (talk) 17:45, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Possible, but I disagree with his point that it being "top importance" should be based on the fact it was Sony's entrance into the console market (after all the Xbox is high, but was Microsoft's first bid into said market).--Kung Fu Man (talk) 17:47, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Actually, as gamerpro stated, it made disc-based games a mainstay in the home console market. That is probably a better reason than the one I first offered (though that is also important). --TorsodogTalk 17:49, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
That second part is debatible, but you (somewhat) have a point. GamerPro64 (talk) 17:52, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Actually, it is not debatable. The PS1 did mark Sony's entry into the market, and it has had an immeasurable impact on the industry since. Those are facts. But thanks for (kinda) agreeing with me. --TorsodogTalk 17:54, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Who wants to look at this? GamerPro64 (talk) 18:00, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
  • I still don't understand why the current-gen consoles should not be our top priority. I would bet they are among our highest viewed articles. Thus we should give them our utmost attention. And if we are insisting on some indication of innovation or "impact" to the industry... The 360 proved the market for digitally delivered content on consoles (XBLA/video marketplace), the PS3 proved that a console can gain market share by simultaneously functioning as a home-entertainment device (Bluray). –xenotalk 18:23, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Did you see my or Kung Fu Man's respones? GamerPro64 (talk) 18:40, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
  • (ec)I tend to agree with xeno on this point about the consoles since they are viewed so much. I would think it would be in the best interests of Wikipedia to have the most popular articles be as good as possible. The current consoles may not be Top importance [to video gaming history and inclusion in print via WP:1.0], but could be seen as Top priority [to the project, gamers, and readers currently]. Did we ever definitively distinguish between those two parameters? I'm sure the consoles have innovation too, but I'm less inclined to push for those reasons (although Sony's planned 10-year life of the console and use as a media center may prove historically relevant if the trend continues). —Ost (talk) 18:41, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
@GamerPro: Which ones? And if they rebuked the former, what of the latter? –xenotalk 18:42, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
I think he meant the comments at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games/Assessment#Current gen consoles are top importance —Ost (talk) 18:46, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Replied briefly there, but my comments at 18:23 above speak to it as well. –xenotalk 18:53, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Your explanations doesn't show how ground-breaking the 360 and PS3 are compared to the Wii. GamerPro64 (talk) 19:11, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Creating the market for digital downloads on a console and selling many, many, consoles to non-gamers doesn't break new ground? As compared to a little remote you can wave around? –xenotalk 19:29, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Oh ha ha. Just because I'm a Nintendo fan and I dislike Sony doesn't mean I'm showing fanboyism. I own a 360. Anyways, I need a secong opinion new to this disscusion. GamerPro64 (talk) 19:42, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

It's this sort of pointless bickering that makes me wonder why this Wikiproject insists on importance ratings. Most other media-based projects have dropped the field. Wikipedia 1.0 isn't too concerned with video gaming in the first place, so the importance of articles only serves to irritate fanboys that feel offended when their consoles and games don't get the respect they feel they deserve. Ultimately, importance is useless to us.--Remurmur (talk) 19:18, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

To speak the thruth, I don;t care about your opinion. If you don't care, keep it to yourself. GamerPro64 (talk) 19:24, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
To be fair, the current system in place largely cuts down on bickering by limiting Top importance articles to those essential to the understanding of video games. I was unaware that WP:1.0 doesn't care about our articles and I take some offense to that position if it is the case. The importance system is used to determine which are most relevant for inclusion in 1.0 and I think that is what ours is setup to do. Many of the articles are not niche topics and deserve representation to make a complete encyclopedia. But your comment does highlight an important point in this discussion about changing assessments: importance is defined and used outside of this project and it's important to kept our interpretation in line with 1.0's meaning. This is why I think Priority can be useful. It can be used to highlight articles that need current watching or work due to current gaming trends or an being featured on the main page. However, I am well aware that this would be a major change requiring adding another parameter to articles and that we already have WP:WikiProject Video games/Essential articles. —Ost (talk) 19:54, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

My opinions here on all points raised:

  • Sega Dreamcast should remain (be at?) high - while it introduced online gaming, I really don't think it can be argued as being the core console that did that (that, if anything likely goes to the original Xbox)
  • PS1 definitely should be "Top" due to the transition from carts to discs.
  • PS2 should probably stay "high" until at least we've confirmed its position as the highest selling console after this current generation transitions over; the console itself has little else that's really core to video games beyond its popularity.
  • Xbox 1 should not be "top" but at least "high"; while MS's first entry, it was a laughable product due to size....
  • Which of course all changed with the 360 which definitely should be "Top", if anything due to being the first significant console to merge online and offline gaming and digital distribution.
  • Wii should be "Top" due to motion controls, since it looks like Sony and MS will be following. (Gamecube should be "High")
  • PS3 should be "High", as it hasn't done anything radically different to distinguish itself. --MASEM (t) 19:43, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
I like it! Does anyone else agree? GamerPro64 (talk) 19:49, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
I still haven't been convinced that we shouldn't put all three as "top" importance, not top importance to the VG industry, but top importance to our wikiproject because they deserve the utmost attention. Also Masem, what of the PS3 breaking ground as a home-entertainment system masquerading as a console? –xenotalk 19:50, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
I do recall that claim having been made by a previous (yet failed) console before. I agree with Masem's suggestion.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 19:52, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
But the PS3 didn't fail at it. Its current market share owes largely to its success as a inexpensive Bluray player with a free video game console included. –xenotalk 19:54, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Regardless none of those features are really of "topmost" importance to the project nor that groundbreaking to video gaming in general, are they?--Kung Fu Man (talk) 20:00, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Consoles before the PS3 have had the ability to play DVDs (PS2, Xbox, 360 w/ HD-DVD), so that's not really unique. Now, as far as I know this isn't true, but if it can be shown that the blu-ray player in the PS3 effectively won the HD-DVD/Blu-ray format war, then that's a consideration for that. But remember, we're about video games and the convengence of home video and video games isn't as significant as video games only. That's why I'd say it's High but not Top. --MASEM (t) 20:02, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
(ec re to Kung Fu) Well, typically consoles have been for gamers. The PS3 (and to a lesser extent, the 360, though we kindof failed a bit) marketed themselves as home entertainment systems, not just consoles. I'd say the PS3 was pretty successful at it. My argument about the big-3 being top importance due to their viewership, still stands, and I still haven't been presented a good argument to refute it. –xenotalk 20:04, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
My brain hurts. If anyone cares (Xeno), I will take a break from this argument. GamerPro64 (talk) 20:06, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
So you don't have a counter-argument? –xenotalk 20:09, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
No, really. My head hurts. GamerPro64 (talk) 20:11, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Take two and call me in the morning. –xenotalk 20:13, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
The PS2 should be top priority regardless of whether it's overtaken this generation in terms of sales. That a console was the top seller at any point in history, let alone the years that PS2 has had is important. The argument that sales shouldn't be taken into account when discussing importance, is bullshit. - hahnchen 12:21, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Console priorities - arb break

Thanks to Mr.Z-man, we now know that PS3 was our 4th-most viewed article in June, achieving nearly half a million views. If that is not a good case for putting it as "top" importance, I don't know what is. We need to abandon (or move away from...) this whole notion of "was it important to the video game industry?" - that's subjective and smacks of original research/opinion. N.B. This is distinct from the Assassin's Creed example provided above as a rebut; I realize that The Sims 3 wouldn't be top importance just because it's the flavour of the month, but PS3 was released nearly 3 years ago and still gains top 5 spot. Meanwhile "Wii" is down at 27. So, which one is really more important for our project to improve for our readers (not make some determination about what was more important to the advancement of the VG industry, which should not be our main concern as a project) ? –xenotalk 20:49, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit conflict] But wouldn't ranking them solely on popularity be even more original research? What happens when the popularity wanes? It's an even more fickle thing than their impact on the industry. Sure, PS3 may be popular now, but when the PS4 is released, will it be important?--ZXCVBNM (TALK) 20:54, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
(two edit conflicts) We'll never really have a perfect assessment system, but I don't think we can assess articles based on page views. I'm sure back in the early 2000s, the GameCube was one of the top viewed articles, yet why isn't it Top ranked? We can't assess articles on popularity because it eschews towards more recent consoles. Although importance to the gaming industry as a whole may be subjective and opinionated, it's more accurate than page views. This is why we should discuss promotions to "Top" status, to avoid opinions by having a consensus discussion. -- Nomader (Talk) 20:55, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
(ec)Err, that completely misses the point of what the importance scale is to serve. The idea is, if we only took the "Top" articles from the VG project, we'd end up with something that is a reasonably comprehensive summary of video games in general without missing much; eg these are the articles that would be first included on any published Wikipedia project; the importance is not because people viewed the page a lot. Which is why the arguments are for what features did certain consoles establish as game-changing features in the video game industry. The ones I suggest (PS1 for disc vs cart, 360 for online features, and Wii for motion control) are all there, but it's hard to put the PS3 there for its home video/media center applications because that is not a critical aspect of video games. It may be for a Home Theater Wikiproject, but not here. This is not trying to show console favorism, but ones that significantly altered the industry, and I've yet to see that with the PS3. --MASEM (t) 20:56, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
(EC) While I agree that the current main consoles are quite popular, and thus their articles are popular too, popularity has rarely been a significant factor in determining project importance. Some good points have been brought up to the extent that the three consoles are groundbreaking in their own right. However, I think it is still too soon to really gauge that impact, and to label them top before we've had a chance to truly view the consoles' full life cycles is presumptuous.
In regard to viewership, that is somewhat irrelevant to what we're doing here. That's great a lot of people are viewing those articles right now, but that won't always be the case. Should the articles be bumped down to high when the next generation come out? If that's the case, then the only factor that seems to truly decide it's importance is viewership, which makes the other guidelines we use for ever other article null. Maybe I'm over-simplifying things too much, but I think the less exceptions we have to deal with the better. That way, we can maintain consistency in our assessments.
I also agree that our importance guidelines are not perfect. But it is not entirely subjective on our part. Everything that's been brought up in this discussion can be backed up by sources. Because we rely on sourcing for our articles, we're really reflecting the subjective views of the industry, from the developers to the press. Of course, we're still interpreting those subjectively, but that's being human plain and simple. And while readers may be interested in the topic, that doesn't make it important, just interesting.
You do bring up an interesting point though. High traffic articles do require more attention, and we should take that into account for our editing practices rather than our assessment practices. At the very least, an "unwritten rule" should exist. At best though, a suggestion to monitor current video game topics should be in our guidelines somewhere. (Guyinblack25 talk 20:58, 9 July 2009 (UTC))
I think then, I am working with a fundamental misunderstanding of what "importance" is meant to be used for. I think it was better when it was called "priority". Perhaps we should have three scales. @Zxcvbm: Yes, that's kindof exactly my point. Once the next generation starts these won't be our top priorities anymore, the new consoles will. Anyhow, we have Mr.Z-man's report so I guess we can use that to focus our efforts on our most popular articles. –xenotalk 21:03, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
(ec)That's what I was saying above. I think there is a valid argument for differences between "priority" and "importance" and perhaps using both. But Mr. Z-man's popular pages page (or a hybrid page with Essential Articles) may achieve this goal without adding a parameter to talk pages. —Ost (talk) 21:11, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Yes, I was half joking about adding another parameter =) –xenotalk 21:15, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
yea, my edit conflict was with you also mentioning Mr. Z-man's list as a solution. I didn't really think another parameter was the best idea, but I think arriving to a clarification between the terms is good. —Ost (talk) 21:47, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

*sigh* This is what happens when I disappear for a day...

  • Atari 2600 should be top because it popularized video games intially
  • Famincom, or NES, should be top because it revitalized the video gaming industry after the video game crash of 1981 and it's impact is still felt even today as, with the exception of Xbox which is largely a North American phenomia, consolge gaming centers around Japan.
  • Gameboy should be top because it being the first handheld game system to popularize the genre.
  • Playstation 1 should be top, but not because of CD-games. There is evidence to support that CD-gaming was already the wave of the future and it was more a descion by several gaming companies, Squaresoft and Enix intially the two biggest giants, to pick that console. CDs were already becoming popular and were laready used for data storage; it was a logicial extension to see them used in video games. The reason it should be top priority is the way memory was stored and the impact this had.
  • It may be arguable that the PS3 should be top if some scholarly research exists showing that the it's sales of the units helped win the blu-ray vs. hd-dvd war.

I do not want to see importance going back to priority where what's new and shiny takes top priority because it's new and shiny. It should remain for what kind of historical impact as this what is important encylopedic-wise, not what someone thinks is the next cool thing.陣内Jinnai 01:03, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Jinnai, I think for the most part that's the consensus that was reached above. For now though, I don't think the PS3 or any other recent system should be top. We can only really judge how it affected the gaming industry from hindsight if we want it to truly be a neutral point of view. Either way, I agree with you about the NES, the Atari 2600, and the PlayStation, although I disagree with you for your reasoning about the PlayStation. The reason it was significant was because it proved that CDs were a profitable enterprise. Compare its sales to the Phillips' CD-i or the 3DO and you can understand why. -- Nomader (Talk) 02:03, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
  • I'm going to leave this one alone, but with one passing comment. We say the "importance scale" is to give WP 1.0 a list of articles we think are absolutely essential to understand video gaming. What I'm being told is that if we get around to printing an encyclopedia, we should include everything that led up to the release of, but not all three presently reigning consoles? That just strikes me as absurd and a disservice to whatever poor soul ends up picking up this printed encyclopedia and can't find an article on the 3rd best selling console in the world at the time we printed this monster. –xenotalk 02:00, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Imagine it like this; when you read about films in a Wikipeida-printed encyclopedia, you'll see classics like Citizen Kane, Casablanca, and Chinatown, but you won't see things like Transformers 2 or Happy Gilmore. As far as the art of cinema goes, the first three were classic films that furthered their medium, but the latter two, though profitably successful, didn't really do anything for the art of film. It falls within the scope of Wikipedia, but it's far more important to cover classics that people know have influenced the art; the same goes for game consoles. We know for a fact that the Atari 2600 and the Nintendo Entertainment System really advanced the gaming industry as a whole, but we can't be certain that the PlayStation 3 has -- we need have to hindsight. And for the most part, I don't think it ever will be labeled top– it hasn't furthered the art of gaming in any notable way (no offense to Playstation fans, I love it too). Do you see what I'm saying? -- Nomader (Talk) 02:16, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
I am trying to get away from this, but no, I don't see what you're saying. Your analogy doesn't follow; we aren't talking about media, we are talking about hardware. It would be like printing an encyclopedia during the VCR wars without an article on beta or VHS. I would be embarrassed if Wikipedia printed (remember there's no wikilinks on paper) an encyclopedia without an article on the PS3 during this generation. Once we're into the 8th generation, if we decide PS3 had no impact, it can move down to "High" while the 8th gen consoles receive top billing. –xenotalk 02:40, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Alright, I'll leave at that– there's no need for either of us (myself especially included) to get touchy over such a minor point. I would think that both High and Top rated articles would be heavily pushed for inclusion... I need to stop myself from responding haha. Sorry to frustrate you, Xeno. -- Nomader (Talk) 02:49, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Nomader - that CDs were a profitable medium was an inevitability given the PC market was going that direction already; the impact memory cards have had was not. However, I suppose we can agree to disagree here as the bottom line is the same.
Also, for inclusion, as long as those articles are well written they will almost certainly be included. It basically only batters for adding points for auto-inclusion and maybe later on for collaboration if we fix up our top-rated articles enough.陣内Jinnai 03:24, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
I think it's easier to say that in hindsight– the long load times they offered when compared to cartridges were a bit of a downer... then again, you are talking to somebody who tries to justify his purchase of a Nintendo 64 far too often to people. I suppose you're right about the memory cards as well, then. I admit, I was mistaken. -- Nomader (Talk) 03:59, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Not really. The long load time was an issue - i will grant that. However space was the real issue and it was documented that catridges back then could not give nearly the amount of space required. Price also played a role (see why something like the 3DO didn't make it). Load times really were the only thing going for cartridges at the time, that and familiarity, which in a rapidly growing industry isn't always good.陣内Jinnai 06:32, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Yep, I agree with that. As I recall, the cartridge system in the N64 was the reason that Square Enix started developing the Final Fantasy series for the PlayStation. Price was actually better for CDs by the time of the PlayStation as I recall as well. I believe we've gotten horribly off-subject though, so I'll stop this conversation now, but you've convinced me Jinnai that memory cards are why PlayStation deserves Top status, not its CD-based media. Cheers (although I still will always have a soft spot for cartridges). -- Nomader (Talk) 07:46, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
O.K, I'm back. What have we agreed on while I was gone? GamerPro64 (talk) 12:49, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm not certain if a concrete consensus has been reached. I think the general sentiment is that articles that further someone's understanding of "what is a video game?" and the history of video games are "top" articles. Of course, that's my view point too. So I'm biased in saying that.
One thing that's come to my mind is that with several of our current "top" and "high" importance articles B-class or lower, I think more discussions like this will occur. Without fully fleshed out and sourced reception, impact, and legacy sections for the articles we consider most important, half of what we say are just educated guesses. (Guyinblack25 talk 15:03, 10 July 2009 (UTC))
Good point. I wanna hear Xeno comment about this. GamerPro64 (talk) 15:20, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
As commented at my talk page, I'm trying to get away from that conversation and simply agree to disagree. I've made my position clear why I feel that all three consoles need to be represented in a print version of Wikipedia if it ever gets made during this gen, and if WP 1.0 really scorns video games articles, then we should ensure to put the most necessary articles for a print encyclopedia as "top" importance. –xenotalk 15:28, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
(EC) Xeno brought up a good point about what I would describe as the difference between encyclopedic importance, providing a reader an understanding of the topic, and project importance, giving attention to current and groundbreaking topics as well as historically important ones. Our assessment scale focuses more on encyclopedic importance, but project importance is something that individual editors kind of arbitrarily deal with from time to time. Krator described it best in our Signpost Project Report. I'm not sure what would remedy this though. (Guyinblack25 talk 15:45, 10 July 2009 (UTC))
I got an idea. Why don't we take a vote on what console-based articles should be Top-important. GamerPro64 (talk) 15:37, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
I think a better idea would be to re-write the "top" importance guideline to include "most popular current-generation consoles". That way, PS3 can be included without us bantering back and forth about whether it has made an impact on the "history of video games" and if, when the 8th generation rolls around, the answer we come up with turns out to be "no", then we can demote it to "high". –xenotalk 15:43, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
I don't know if voting would really achieve a proper consensus. Each console has some many different reasons for their ratings. Besides, I think the most important consoles would be covered in the "top articles". (Guyinblack25 talk 15:45, 10 July 2009 (UTC))
It was just an idea. But anyways, perfect examples for Top article would be the 2600, the NES, the PS1 and , just a thought, the Sega Genesis. Or for the British, the Mega Drive. —Preceding unsigned comment added by GamerPro64 (talk • contribs) 15:48, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
I would not support such a motion and even if it passed, Wikipedia is not a democracy.陣内Jinnai 18:52, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Arb. break #2: Tidying up

Okay, because the above discussion has gotten a tiny bit confusing, I think this break is in order to sort everything out and get it worked out. Currently here are the top-priority articles:

These are the ones being disputed to be Top or High:

Arguments for the PlayStation 2
  • Currently the highest selling console of all time.
Arguments for the PlayStation 3
  • Helped win the BluRay vs. DVD war.
  • Sold as also a home entertainment system
  • Current gen console, aruged that should be high as a result of popularity
Arguments for the Xbox 360
  • Xbox Live allowed for downloading of older games to the console for play, predating Virtual Console?
  • Current gen console, aruged that should be high as a result of popularity
Arguments for the Wii
  • Introduced motion controls as a mainstream element of gameplay.
  • Current gen console, aruged that should be high as a result of popularity

Now if anyone has anything else to add up there, do so. Just avoid opinion (no stuff like "clearly historic" or that hubbub). If we can follow the following format in the discussion, we can at least get somewhere:

  • My thoughts on each are that first off, the PS2 and PS3 did not do much but build upon the legacy of the original. Sales really aren't a big thing unless it sells more than the next generation, and the BluRay vs DVD format issue feels outside the scope of the video game project, as does the home entertainment system argument. The 360 didn't really tread new ground that much: the idea had been pushed before in the form of the Satellaview and other items. It helped make it mainstream, but the concept was still not entirely new and helped along by improved technology. The Wii is a similar case: break it down and the Wiimote is in many ways an improved Power Glove. So I feel none of those four should be top priority.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 19:23, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Also for Wii, it's motion-dection technology hasn't been used, nor is it planned for use, on other consoles/handhelds. As for the PS3, I don't think it "helped" it think it was one of 2 principle reasons High definition optical disc format war#Deciding factors. That said though, the impact of the format is still unknown and many companies are looking at discs just around the corner or preferably to solid state memory.陣内Jinnai 19:39, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
  • I'd argue that the Magnavox Odyssey should maybe be dropped to high. Though it is the first home console, it's sale figures were rather small and it didn't have much of a lasting impact or legacy outside of inspiring Pong, which proved video games could be profitable.
  • As far as the Wii is concerned, its biggest impact is that it helped break some demographic barriers video games have long been associated with, namely age and gender. However, unless this is a lasting effect, I don't think it should be "top". It's for that reason that I believe articles related to the current generation (consoles, history, games, etc.) should not be rated "top". (Guyinblack25 talk 19:53, 10 July 2009 (UTC))
If, as has been stated above, WP 1.0 truly scorns video games articles, then there's a possibility that WP 1.0 would only take our Top-importance articles. Are you (Jinnai and Kung Fu) ok with a print version of Wikipedia being released without articles on the current-gen consoles? That's madness. From Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Release Version Criteria#Importance of topic, "Top: Subject is a must-have for a print encyclopedia". Articles on all three currently reigning consoles are a must-have for a print encyclopedia. –xenotalk 19:54, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
They're not scorned, and I'm not sure how that came up. You can quite easily see how many articles were selected for WP:0.7 at WP:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/SelectionBot, which should prove that video games articles are not scorned. Importance to each project is only a part of the metric for inclusion in 1.0. --Izno (talk) 19:59, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
That doesn't address the remainder of the statement. I have not been presented with an argument that refutes that articles on Wii, PS3, and Xbox 360 are a "must-have for a print encyclopedia" (printed during this console generation). This, to me, seems self-evident, if we want to provide a useful printed product. –xenotalk 20:03, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
I had no intention of [dis]proving the entirety of your statement. --Izno (talk) 20:08, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Fair enough. However, another comment re WP 1.0. Look at the selection of articles they chose for WP 0.5: 3D Monster Maze — Chrono Trigger — Computer and video games — Donkey Kong (video game) — Doom — Final Fantasy VI — Final Fantasy VII — Final Fantasy VIII— Final Fantasy X — Final Fantasy X-2— Half-Life 2 — The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker — Link (The Legend of Zelda) — Nintendo — Nintendo Entertainment System — Perfect Dark — StarCraft — Super Mario 64 — (16 articles). I know 0.5 was supposed to be a proof of concept, but ...honestly. –xenotalk 20:11, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Maybe looking at the 0.7 video game index would help give an idea how things shape up. Just because something is high doesn't mean that it's excluded.
Also, I'd imagine that Video game console would give a general reader the basics of the three systems. They don't need a full article to learn about what the consoles are and their impact. (Guyinblack25 talk 20:12, 10 July 2009 (UTC))
Thanks. I was looking for that. They're in there, so I guess my panic is unwarranted. However, I still hold that articles (not just mentions in a parent article) on all three consoles are a must-have for a print encyclopedia and therefore "top" importance is entirely appropriate during this console generation. And I think I'll make another attempt to leave this one alone =) –xenotalk 20:16, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
No worries, I think the difference between the two versions is that the VG project was not heavily involved with the 0.5 version. I think 1.0 team mainly included whatever video game FAs were available. By 0.7, the project had grown, we had better quality controls in place, and more FAs and GAs to select from. Plus the 0.7 workshop we setup helped further weed out poor quality and low importance articles. Hopefully by the next version we'll have even more important articles up to GA and FA. (Guyinblack25 talk 20:40, 10 July 2009 (UTC))
Is infrared sensing a consideration for the Wii? It's not a new technology, but I don't know of other consoles that use pointing at the screen as an input method. —Ost (talk) 20:02, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Didn't the Light gun do this? –xenotalk 20:03, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
The Zapper blanked out the screen and notified the system if the user was pointing at a box on the screen (where the targets were); I'm not as sure about other light guns. I understand your point, but the wiimote is a bit more sophisticated and is used as a primary input device. I don't think a light gun could be effectively used to control a pointer on the screen and other consoles have not adapted light guns as the main method to control input. It's just a thought I had when Guy mentioned the demographic barriers. I personally think the IR improves the experience, but I'm not sure if it's a major innovation for consoles. —Ost (talk) 20:12, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Gotcha. –xenotalk 20:16, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] StarCraft II

I have this article on my watchlist, and at the moment I am tracking edits to it by one User:Willibix. I think this guy is editing in good faith, but he is starting to edit along the fringes of establish consensus of the page; this includes the removal or reliable sources in the article. Since I have summer school I wonder if I could get a few good users to keep tabs on the article so I do not have to worry about watching this for the rest of the summer semester :) 19:02, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

You could always message him, you know.--ZXCVBNM (TALK) 20:26, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Pageview stats

After a recent request, I added WikiProject Video games to the list of projects to compile monthly pageview stats for. The data is the same used by http://stats.grok.se/en/ but the program is different, and includes the aggregate views from all redirects to each page. The stats are at Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Popular pages.

The page will be updated monthly with new data. The edits aren't marked as bot edits, so they will show up in watchlists. If you have any comments or suggestions, please let me know. Thanks! Mr.Z-man 20:31, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

So if I user reaches a page by a redirect, the target page won't get a page view increase? I didn't know that... Is this documented somewhere? Else, the numbers will be inflated, no? –xenotalk 20:33, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
It will increase the view count for the purposes of this list (assuming the redirect existed at the start of the month when the page lists were made), it may not on the stats.grok.se site. Mr.Z-man 21:09, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Yes, but won't that give the target page a double hit? (i.e. won't the squid servers report a hit for both the redirect AND the target page, thus your bot will count the one view twice?) I'm concerned that, PS3, for example, might be greatly inflated because most users reach it by typing "PS3" thus giving "PlayStation 3" a double hit? –xenotalk 21:14, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
For anon users, squid stores the full HTML, so for PS3, it stores the same content as PlayStation 3 except with the "redirected from ..." For logged in users, the redirect is handled all by MediaWiki, so it never goes back to the squids. Mr.Z-man 21:40, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
thanks for explaining and providing this very useful report! –xenotalk 22:04, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Note that when I browse using IE7 it chokes on that page. There's too much stuff in it. Firefox works OK. SharkD (talk) 08:27, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Source Searching

I've been working on an article, Moto Racer Advance, for some time now but I've run into a snag -- I have almost no development information. The only online sources I can find are two IGN previews ([3] [4]) -- I need print sources. I've made a request at the reference library for sources, but judging by the lack of responses there lately, I thought I'd bring up the request at the main project talk page. Any assistance is appreciated (the game was shown at E3 2002, so even if it's just a blurb, it'd be better than what I have now). Cheers. -- Nomader (Talk) 21:46, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

I'll take a look. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 22:06, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Thanks a bunch. -- Nomader (Talk) 23:00, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
If I don't get back to you in a week or so, ping me on my talk, I easily forget things. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 02:50, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
That shouldn't be a problem at all. -- Nomader (Talk) 03:01, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Mass Effect article

In the Mass Effect Trilogy page, I have made a slight edit concerning Mass Effect 3, and it now says that it is slated for a release TBA in 2011, but no details concerning production and development have yet been announced. I made sure to cite my source, the IGN XBOX 360 page for the game (yes, they have a page for it already).DAMN tpwwnetforums (talk) 08:36, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

It seems to me they are getting a little ahead of themselves with the Mass Effect announcing business. They already spoiled ME2's ending, even before it's released!--ZXCVBNM (TALK) 17:44, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] DS Vision

DS Vision is a huge project in Japan to bring E-books, comic books, music, and videos to the Nintendo DS. It was launched in Mid-2008 and there is hope it will be brought to North America. Also it will bring the media part of the handheld on closer terms with the PSP. It's a big topic to not even have a stub on Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BRiMaTiOn (talk • contribs) 10:08, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Also I have a problem. The deal with these Nintendo DS storage devices is this. Nintendo does not have a way to play music or video on the DS Lite. This problem was remedied by these devices. Only they allowed illegal things like roms and illegal copies to come into play. All the devices under Nintendo DS storage devices like acekard, cyclo, r4, r3, all of these are devices that allow people to play illegal games. A simple search shows that people have problems with them ALL the time. They are written so badly that they become complicated and bug filled. All of them don't even have a browser to show the movies or music. That's where Moonshell comes in. Moonshell is the browser that allows the movies and music to be played. Most of these devices if left alone would only play roms, mostly illegal. Moonshell itself is a very base program that if sold in retail stores would not be worth 10 dollars. It's interface looks like it's still in code. They all need this program.

The only decent third party version of a storage device is Games n' Music. It does not allow illegal copies of roms and is user-friendly for music and videos. It is sold in retail stores and plays by the rules.

Also DS Vision is Nintendo's official version and is currently only available in Japan. It is going to take advantage of all the options homebrew applications can do.

Games n' Music looks to be the device to use if you were to burn your own videos or music however.

These devices should be able to solve the gap between PSP and DS.

Wikipedia has been taken over by this underground community of Rom hackers. They write glowing reviews of all the underground stuff, and go out of there way to bury products like Games n' Music. DS Vision, the official Nintendo product is nowhere to be found.

Nintendo Storage Devices are a HUGE HUGE deal now a days. The list of possible devices proves it. There is a huge debate and controversy around them. Nintendo says the pirating has cost them millions of dollars because of these devices. Wikipedia needs to understand this because there is a huge skew in this area of Wiki that buries the commercial products and places these underground devices on a pedestal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BRiMaTiOn (talk • contribs) 10:36, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

If the device passes Wikipedia's notability guideline (IE it's given reliable second-party coverage in the press) then it can either covered somewhere relevant or have an article. Wikipedia's content is generated by volunteers, if nobody's interested in writing about DS Vision then it won't be here, no conspiracy needed. Someoneanother 15:46, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
There don't seem to be many sources, so it probably got overlooked since it's Japan-only. If it was released in America, I'm sure there would be a large article by now. There do seem to be enough articles to start a section in the Nintendo DS storage devices article. It doesn't seem nearly as popular as other flash carts, not just because of the "legality" but because of the small selection of things for sale. [5] Also, the devices are not "underground", it just depends on what you do with them. Game piracy itself is the "underground" part.--ZXCVBNM (TALK) 17:53, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Warhammer 40,000

Qusetion. Does Warhammer 40,000fall into this project's scope? I noticed it in the Video Game section of Wikipedia: Good Articles but it doesn't have a vg template. GamerPro64 (talk) 13:10, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

It's in the wrong section by the look of it, considering there's a boardgame listing. Someoneanother 15:31, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
The article is focused on board games, video games are so minor part of it that it doesn't warrant the template. --Mika1h (talk) 19:30, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Video_games"
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